Technology Cybersecurity can protect data. How about elevators?

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Superior cybersecurity capabilities are important to safeguard software program, programs, and information in a brand new period of cloud, the web of issues, and different sensible applied sciences. In the true property trade, for instance, firms are involved about the potential for hijacked elevators, in addition to compromised constructing administration and heating and cooling programs.

In response to Greg Belanger, vp of safety applied sciences at CBRE, the world’s largest business actual property providers and funding firm, securing the enterprise has grown extra complicated—safety groups have to be conversant in controls and {hardware} on new units, in addition to what model of firmware is put in and what vulnerabilities are current. For instance, if a heating, air flow, and air-conditioning (HVAC) system is linked to the web, he questions, “Is the firmware that’s operating the HVAC system weak to assault? Might you discover a strategy to traverse that community and are available in and assault workers of that firm?”

Understanding enterprise vulnerabilities are essential to safeguard bodily belongings however investing in the precise instruments can even be a problem, says Belanger. “Synthetic intelligence and machine studying want massive units of information to be efficient in delivering the insights,” he explains. Within the period of cloud-first and industrial web of issues, the perimeter is turning into way more fluid. By making use of AI and machine studying to information units, he says, “You begin to see patterns of threat and dangerous habits begin to emerge.”

One other precedence when securing bodily belongings is to translate insights into metrics that C-suite leaders can perceive, to assist enhance decision-making. CEOs and members of boards of administrators, who’re turning into extra safety savvy, can profit from aggregated scores for assault floor administration. “All people desires to know, particularly after an assault like Colonial Pipeline, may that occur to us? How safe are we?” says Belanger. But when your enterprise is ready to assign benefit to numerous options, or rating them, then it’s doable to measure enchancment. Belanger continues, “Our potential to see the rating, react to the threats, after which maintain that rating bettering is a key metric.”

That’s why assault floor administration is crucial, Belanger continues. “We’re really getting visibility to CBRE as an attacker would, and oftentimes these instruments are automated. So we’re seeing way over anybody hacker would see individually. We’re seeing the entire of the environment.”

This episode of Enterprise Lab is produced in affiliation with Palo Alto Networks.

Full transcript

Laurel Ruma: From MIT Technology Evaluation, I am Laurel Ruma, and that is Enterprise Lab, the present that helps enterprise leaders make sense of latest applied sciences popping out of the lab and into {the marketplace}. Our matter right this moment is securing bodily belongings. Clearly, there was numerous give attention to the cyber a part of cybersecurity, however enterprises even have bodily belongings, together with oil and gasoline infrastructure, manufacturing services, and actual property. Whenever you throw in mergers and acquisitions, limitless cloud cases, IoT sensors, and units in every single place, an organization’s assault floor can be broad, weak, and largely unknown.

Two phrases for you: Hijacked elevators.

My visitor is Greg Belanger, vp of safety applied sciences at CBRE. CBRE is the world’s largest business actual property providers and funding agency, with greater than 100,000 workers worldwide.

This episode of Enterprise Lab is produced in affiliation with Palo Alto Networks.

Welcome, Greg.

Greg Belanger: Hey.

Laurel: To start out off, it is usually stated that each firm is a know-how firm. So how does cybersecurity play a task inside business actual property? Bodily safety is probably going one thing most individuals are conversant in, however what about in terms of programs, sensors and information?

Greg: CBRE has been on a digital transformation journey for the previous 5 years in anticipation of our market altering. Previously, nobody considered business actual property as a software program or know-how firm, however we’re altering that. We’re what’s occurred to different industries like Uber. What Uber did to taxis and Airbnb did to accommodations, we wish to ensure that CBRE is on the forefront of that. So we have determined to disrupt ourselves and rework right into a know-how firm. We’re a business actual property firm with know-how and information as differentiators. With all of that, there’s much more innovation, functions, migration to the cloud and sensible constructing applied sciences. CBRE’s management knew early on that we wanted to have a sophisticated cybersecurity functionality to safeguard our shoppers worldwide within the new period. So guaranteeing the protection of our software program and safeguarding our information are prime priorities for this firm 12 months over 12 months.

Laurel: That is actually fascinating since you’re proper. Folks do not essentially assume about how an actual property firm could possibly be a know-how firm. Has it been a tough 5 years? Do you assume it is taken people some time to grasp the significance and urgency of this digital transformation?

Greg: It has been an important 5 years. It has been a change for them, actually, however there was numerous change being launched by the smooth aspect of the home. So altering from a business actual property firm to an organization that leverages business actual property and software program to run these buildings, to leverage the information that we now have about folks, that is been a giant change as properly. They not solely did safety change, however they moved to practices like agile software program growth, cell know-how, and issues like that. Safety was simply one other layer that was added on prime of the already current change. That is why we did not have a CIO. We had a chief digital transformation officer on the helm.

Laurel: That is an fascinating setup, as a result of then cybersecurity simply turns into fully built-in in no matter you do. It isn’t thought-about a separate add-on.

Greg: Completely. I used to be really employed to be the vp of devSecOps, which was integrating safety into all of those agile software program growth practices. Safety was centered on the place we had been 5 years in the past—if you’re able to go reside, we’ll check you and let you know whether or not or not you are going to get to go to manufacturing. Now, we work carefully with our builders as companions, and we’re making an attempt to shift as far left as we presumably can. So operating assessments and giving them design concepts, menace modeling, issues like that to try to ensure that no matter software program they launch is able to go on day one.

Laurel: Simply to provide people an understanding of what devSecOps is, so devOps is a follow of steady software program growth with an IT operations focus, and then you definitely add in safety. So then you definitely’re really pulling in all of those groups to construct higher software program for the corporate typically and in addition protect it.

Greg: Completely proper. The important thing to that’s we needed safety to be as automated as doable. Whenever you consider devOps, it is taking numerous that technique of constructing software program and deploying software program and doing it frequently. We needed to ensure that safety was in that very same gentle. As you bought able to develop software program and migrate software program, that safety was concerned at key steps alongside the best way.

Laurel: I as soon as had a hair-raising dialog with an government about hijacked elevators. Might you give our listeners some examples of particular cybersecurity issues that buildings and actual property providers may encounter which might be completely different than essentially, say, an Uber?

Greg: Completely. Hijacked elevators, constructing administration programs, HVAC programs are all a priority. You hear lots about these items within the information, one thing that we skilled personally. We’re creating cell functions that you simply can embed in your cellphone after which use issues like Bluetooth Low Vitality to really open doorways to our buildings. So if you consider bodily safety, there is a contact level now with data know-how and the economic web of issues. We really developed an utility that may permit an worker to return in and use their cellphone to unlock a door, to get entry to their office.

Should you’ve ever labored someplace that is so massive that they’ve to provide you a map to go from one place to a different in an workplace, we developed what we name waypoint applied sciences to permit customers with this cell utility to navigate between the place they’re sitting and the place the convention room was and provides them suggestions alongside the best way. All of that’s finished by Bluetooth and integrations into cell. We as safety professionals should safeguard that.

We had to have a look at this cell system, which was linked to a sensor, and that sensor was linked to a gateway, and that gateway was linked to the web, however how did that every one work? How did information get in? How did it get out? Ensuring that these units are on separate, segmented networks. These are all crucial considerations for us. We additionally ran penetration assessments in opposition to these functions and units to verify they had been secure.

We’re all of the dangers of those new applied sciences as a part of our fashionable skillset, and we’re software program builders. They’re making these applied sciences, and infrastructure groups are standing them up, as we attempt to safe the enterprise.

Laurel: A bit bit extra about penetration testing or pen testing — that is if you had been really making an attempt to see how safe your community and atmosphere is?

Greg: That is proper. We’re paying folks to try to break in. Hacking shouldn’t be against the law. We’re making an attempt to pay moral hackers to interrupt into our programs to inform us the place dangerous guys, actual dangerous guys may really discover methods to blow up our programs.

Laurel: So we’re actually speaking about one thing that goes past a sensible constructing. After we take a look at the latest cybersecurity breaches, for instance, the water remedy hack down in Florida, what we see that the floor space of a constructing or an organization is definitely fairly broad, and perhaps exhibits locations that aren’t the obvious for folks or pen assessments or unethical hackers to really hack right into a constructing or an organization.

Greg: That is proper. It is a comparatively new discipline. There are a variety of nice firms which might be this operational know-how (or OT) to try to pen check to seek out what vulnerabilities exist. It is a completely different self-discipline. It’s a must to be conversant in a few of the controls or a few of the {hardware} that govern these environments, what sort of firmware is employed on these units, after which what sort of vulnerabilities are literally current in that firmware.

It is barely completely different from the IT penetration check or issues that we usually perceive as drivers and libraries that might have vulnerabilities constructed into these as properly. Then add to that, there are actually touchpoints. So should you’ve acquired an HVAC system that is linked to the web, is the firmware that is operating the HVAC system weak to assault? Might you discover a strategy to traverse that community and are available in and assault workers of that firm? So these are some key considerations for us.

Laurel: Having the precise instruments to defend an enterprise can also be a problem as safety continues to evolve, to face varied counter threats. A few of which may be extra automated like synthetic intelligence, however what’s essential is knowing your enterprise’s vulnerability, proper? So the doable assault floor of your complete firm, appropriate?

Greg: Completely. Synthetic intelligence and machine studying want massive units of information to be efficient in delivering the insights. Within the period of cloud-first and industrial web of issues (IIoT), this perimeter that you simply’re making an attempt to achieve data about is turning into way more fluid. Historically, the perimeter was well-defined. It was hardened in opposition to assault, however now with cloud cases, IIoT units could present up in your community and could possibly be uncovered to the web with out a lot warning. Even within the period of conventional perimeter days defenses, seeing your organization as an attacker would from the surface in was a tough activity.

Now, we now have extra fashionable instruments that aren’t solely surfacing these programs in actual time, however alerting you to the vulnerabilities that might influence your scores. We see issues like shadow IT, misconfigured IoT units, cloud programs, along with much more visibility into what is going on on in our places of work worldwide. Making use of AI machine studying to that dataset, and also you begin to see patterns of threat and dangerous habits begin to emerge.

Laurel: When you think about outside-in, how do you take a look at that—as an outsider wanting into your organization and doable areas to use?

Greg: The idea of a few of these assault floor administration instruments is they offer us the identical visibility that anyone on the web must our firm. It is tough to see our firm in totality. Whenever you consider an organization the dimensions of CBRE, the place are your entire digital belongings? Are you aware for a proven fact that anyone hasn’t stood up an internet site on a cloud internet hosting supplier, say, in South Africa after which used your emblem and your title, and used it for some kind of innocuous advertising and marketing objective, however that also may have an effect in your model? These kinds of issues aren’t all the time surfaced by regular instruments that we now have scanning our identified atmosphere.

So assault floor administration, we exit and we determine all of those belongings which may be associated to CBRE. Then the opposite activity for us is to go in and take a look at these belongings and really correlate them with identification, the CBRE IP house. So we’re really getting visibility to CBRE as an attacker would, and oftentimes these instruments are automated. So we’re seeing way over anybody hacker would see individually. We’re seeing the entire of the environment.

Laurel: So that is the way you measure your assault floor.

Greg: Precisely.

Laurel: You attempt to discover every little thing you presumably can. Some organizations use this stock as a metric, like how briskly does it really take to measure your entire belongings to do a full asset stock after which evaluate it to what the attackers see? As you talked about, one attacker could solely see one factor, however attackers usually work as a workforce, as we noticed this lately with the Colonial Pipeline exploit. So how does this give firms a leg up?

Greg: It is a journey. It’s a must to take a look at if you begin out with assault floor administration, your platform of alternative goes to determine numerous belongings which will or is probably not related together with your firm. So the very first thing you are going to take a look at is what proportion of belongings have we recognized positively as our belongings? The primary metric is, what number of have you ever found? How many have we recognized? What stays to be finished? From there, we personally moved on to have a look at our subsequent 5 large subjects. So issues like: Did our assault floor administration device reveal expired certificates, cloud accounts that we could not have been conscious of? Did we detect any malware popping out of certainly one of our factors of presence?

I am going to offer you an instance: We had an occasion the place they detected malware popping out of certainly one of our places of work in Europe, and so we instantly sprang into motion. We tried to determine what asset it was. For the lifetime of us, we could not determine what asset that was. We seemed on the asset tag. It was a laptop computer, however we did not have it on our community. It wasn’t related to a person. We got here to comprehend due to that, that our visitor community was popping out of the identical level of presence from that workplace, and in order that was one thing. It was fortunately not an actual malware incident, however anyone that was a visitor in our community had one thing that was an affected asset.

So these are the kinds of insights that we began to glean from assault floor administration over the previous three years. Now, we’re trying to get extra superior and take a look at aggregating all of these items into an combination rating, very like a credit score rating.

Laurel: That is superb, you could possibly spring into motion shortly if you observed one thing not fairly proper in a world community like that. This appears pressing, proper? So how do you really categorical to your fellow friends and distributors and all of the companions down all the chain and ecosystem, how essential it’s to acknowledge assault floor administration? Additionally, for you your self, do you end up a pioneer or perhaps a parade chief the place you are main the best way for lots of different firms to grasp that this sort of know-how and mind-set about safety is right here, prefer it’s an actual factor?

Greg: As a lot as I wish to be known as a visionary, I am actually not a visionary, however these are ideas which were identified for some time. They’re simply now beginning to get large-scale adoption. After I began speaking about assault floor administration, it was not simply understood.

When you clarify what it’s you are doing and what the assault floor administration instruments will really offer you, that gentle bulb second occurred in a short time. Our CISO instantly noticed the worth on this device, instantly stated we have to completely ensure that we determine all of our belongings. What extra can we glean from these programs? It was nice. We noticed shadow IT. We noticed cloud accounts that we did not know existed. We noticed misconfigured units or certificates that had been about to run out. So the worth of that turns into instantly obvious, however it’s one thing that does take a bit little bit of explaining.

Laurel: So if you talked about the aggregated rating for assault floor administration, that seems like one thing that is a little more understandable to a board and varied CEOs and different executives. So that you can say we’re bettering, or we’re not doing as properly this 12 months or quarter as we take a look at the scores in combination one after the other. Do you assume that this tallying, or approach of bringing a scorecard to safety, will assist that dialogue with CEO’s, executives, and boards typically?

Greg: Completely. It is lengthy been an issue. All people desires to know, particularly after an assault like Colonial Pipeline, may that occur to us? How safe are we? What’s our rating, or is there a metric you can give me to inform me whether or not or not I am secure, or our program is efficient? Oftentimes, we’ll give them a wide range of metrics. Listed here are all of the vulnerabilities that we now have. Listed here are the malware cases that we have detected and cleaned. Listed here are all the safety incidents that we see every day. However these do not essentially translate into, are we secure? Are we getting higher? Are there areas the place we can focus? In order we take a look at giving one metric, it actually helps make clear that image. Should you can clarify how that metric was derived, the way it was a bunch of things like certificates, or vulnerabilities, or configuration, and what about the mixture of your utility scanning your utility safety testing?

Should you take a look at how we have lowered all of our excessive threat vulnerabilities from an utility safety perspective, that elements into it. So developing with that components, that’s actually tough. It’s one thing that could be a problem, and people like myself in safety thrive on these sorts of challenges. However that is actually the place I see the CEOs and boards of administrators who’re positively turning into extra safety savvy, that is the place I see them wanting that metric to go. They wish to see a rating that offers them a way of consolation that we’re doing higher, and this isn’t one thing static. It isn’t one thing that may all the time enhance as a result of new vulnerabilities, new assaults happen on a regular basis, and that rating will change. However our potential to see the rating, react to the threats, after which maintain that rating bettering is a key metric for us.

Laurel: Do you’re feeling that boards and government groups have gotten extra safety savvy? I imply, it is inconceivable, proper, to not see the headlines nearly each week now of 1 breach or one other, however is that filtering by?

Greg: Yeah. I personally know, for us, we all the time get an annual listing of priorities that come out of our CEO and our board. Since I have been at my firm at CBRE now, it has been our primary or quantity two precedence each single 12 months. So it’s a prime precedence, as a result of they see the headlines.

As any safety skilled will let you know, any time one thing comes out of vulnerability, a zero day, an assault like Colonial Pipeline, all of us get requested the identical query. Might that occur right here? Are we in danger? So these kinds of issues are completely urgent on our board’s thoughts. The factor that’s fascinating to me is the boards of administrators now are wanting to herald members who’re themselves extra safety savvy, they usually’re asking laborious questions. What are you doing about these vulnerabilities? How shortly can you patch? What’s your meantime between vulnerability and patching?

These are issues that immediately discuss to our safety skilled language. Definitely, they’re very related to us, however they’re actually extra direct and extra invested, they usually give the board a way of consolation that anyone on their aspect who speaks the safety language.

Laurel: I imply, that is what you wish to see, proper? Clearly the board’s priorities are huge, and certainly one of them is to make revenue, however the different one is to not lose revenue, and a cybersecurity assault may hurt that. So it’s important to ensure you are talking the language throughout all the firm.

Greg: Completely.

Laurel: You talked a bit about how assault floor administration really provides you this perception to know that the pc itself has malware on it, nevertheless it hasn’t affected the community but. So are there different insights that you’ve got seen from assault floor administration software program that simply shocked you or made you notice how essential it was to have this potential?

Greg: Sure. Like numerous large firms, we conduct an annual pen check. That’s, we rent anyone from exterior of our firm to assault us as a nasty man would. This provides us a way of how far they can go. The distinction with precise assaults and these firms that we rent is we give them a hard and fast time set. We are saying, “You’ve got acquired six weeks to interrupt in and get so far as you can to our surroundings,” and we give them the phrases of engagement. You are allowed to do these items, however not allowed to do these different issues.

Within the years that we have had assault floor administration employed, it has been nice to see these assaults. They arrive again they usually offer you a readout week after week, that is what we’re seeing, these are the issues that we have exploited. We’re in a position to see lots of the identical issues that they are in a position to see.

For instance, this 12 months they identified an internet site hosted in South Africa. They stated it’s operating this framework and it seems to be on this internet hosting supplier. There seem like no vulnerabilities, however we’re attacking it and seeing if we can’t break into it. Is that your IP? Sure, sure it’s. We’re conscious of that by our assault floor administration device. We’re conscious of the applying. We can’t essentially safe it as a result of we did not stand it up. It is a part of shadow IT.

However as a result of we have surfaced that, now we’re in a position to try to discover out precisely who was operating that web site, what they should do to safe it, whether or not or not they should carry it into our fold and host it with our commonplace company IT internet hosting suppliers, these kinds of issues.

So it has been invaluable from the standpoint of it as a pen check, we’re in a position to see lots of the identical issues that our penetration testers are seeing by our assault floor administration. In order that’s been comforting to know that we now have eyes and eyesight into the identical issues an attacker would.

Laurel: Whenever you discuss about that, how does it really assist your safety workforce be extra profitable in repelling assaults? How does ASM or assault floor administration assist with that?

Greg: Visibility is the secret from a safety perspective. We needed to have the ability to see every little thing in our surroundings. Then you definitely take a step past that and also you say, all proper, now that we can see every little thing, what sort of habits can we see out of those belongings? That was the subsequent step, working with our accomplice in assault floor administration, to begin to see the habits of those belongings, whether or not or not they’re indicating that perhaps there is a compromise or that there was some kind of vulnerability. It is very like emissions testing. So if you assume about your automotive and you’re taking it in for emissions testing, they hook up a tool to your tailpipe they usually see what’s popping out of your automotive they usually offer you a cross or fail grade.

Assault floor administration is similar to that. From a behavioral standpoint we’re in a position to have a look at all of those factors of presence, all of those web IP addresses and see what’s popping out of them. That provides us some insights into their habits. Then we’re taking it a step additional now, and we’re really integrating that every one in actual time with our SIM, our safety incident and occasion administration system. That’s monitored 24/7 by our safety operation middle in order that after we see one thing that rises to the extent of a safety incident, we can reply to it in actual time.

Laurel: Which is precisely what you wish to do, have the equipment do numerous the heavy lifting, after which carry within the people to really determine what’s taking place and occurring and safe all the firm.

Greg: Completely, yeah.

Laurel: How does the just about ubiquitous adoption of cloud providers have an effect on the best way that you simply assume about safety and assault floor administration. Whether or not it is a spun up cases or an elevator, it is nonetheless a floor, proper?

Greg: That is proper, and it is a key concern. Whenever you assume about the elastic nature of most cloud service suppliers, numerous infrastructure could possibly be stood up in minutes, and chances are you’ll or is probably not conscious of that infrastructure, the way it’s linked, what vulnerabilities it has constructed into it. Assault floor administration provides us the identical visibility that an attacker would have. In order issues get spun up, in the event that they’re misconfigured, for instance, they usually’re leaking information in some vogue, even metadata, round, hey, I am right here, I am an online server. Here is my model. Here is my quantity, that offers an attacker a bunch of knowledge that we do not essentially need them to see. What kind of vulnerabilities exist for that individual internet server and model, and what issues may I expose? That publicity itself additionally provides attackers a foothold. They can begin to scan that individual asset and take a look at methods of brute forcing or knocking the door in order that they can really discover a strategy to come into our surroundings.

So from our perspective, assault floor administration provides us that visibility into if we’re all of our cloud environments and we can inform them what we use and what we’re conscious of, then they can monitor these for modifications in our posture that come out, and take a look at whether or not or not we now have belongings that we did not essentially imply to show the web, and what we’re telling the world by the publicity of these belongings. So it is actually been a sport changer for us after we assume about how our cloud atmosphere works. It is helped us ensure that our cloud atmosphere, aside from very particular factors of presence, is essentially contained within that personal cloud community.

Laurel: It has been a reasonably robust 12 months for lots of people and numerous industries, however the reverberations of the pandemic all through the business actual property trade shall be rippling throughout for years, if not many years. What are you pondering about in another way with safety due to the pandemic?

Greg: Definitely, the very first thing that got here to thoughts final 12 months with all people working from dwelling, and I feel this’ll be true for plenty of years, is how can we protect people who find themselves now working from dwelling? How can we protect workers which might be on a house community with their households? Their households could not have the identical safety instruments that we now have and our belongings could also be uncovered. So we have checked out issues like At all times On VPN, which can protect our workers from no matter occurs on their specific dwelling community. That is actually been useful. We’re additionally new applied sciences like Safe Entry Service Edge, in order that we can try to carry all our instruments and applied sciences a lot nearer to individuals who could be working from dwelling or working from any location for that matter.

Then lastly, I feel it is put an enormous emphasis on safety as a complete. There’s much more consciousness of issues which have occurred within the final 12 months or in order that have actually pushed dwelling the necessity for a very good cybersecurity program. So it is had the impact of creating an already dangerous state of affairs for locating actually good, dependable safety professionals much more dire. It is very tough to seek out and their circumstances now are completely different. Quite a lot of safety professionals are working from dwelling, they usually need that elevated flexibility to proceed the earn a living from home, or have a versatile schedule, or work from a unique workplace. So discovering actually good folks is actually more durable post-pandemic.

Laurel: That’s, I feel, an issue not only for safety people, however typically, as folks change the best way that they reside and wish to work. One thing fascinating you stated was simply the thought of securing the house community, which means the accountability of an organization is beginning to prolong out previous the corporate’s usually pretty well-defined areas. As a result of the fact of it’s if the home is not secured, then the community’s not safe, after which your worker shouldn’t be safe.

Greg: That is completely proper. Whenever you assume about it, we now have some data of who’re our most-attacked folks. We all know a few of the folks which might be extra usually focused both as a result of they’re an government of some kind, or they’ve labored inside an government, or they’re able, say, in authorized or finance the place an attacker may leverage these positions to commit some fraud.

Considering about how we protect these people after they’re working from house is a key concern for us. This At all times On VPN, it has been a problem to get that rolled out in every single place, however we have finished it in brief order. Now we now have the identical safety afforded to all of our workers, whether or not or not they’re dwelling, whether or not or not they’re within the workplace, or they’re in a espresso store. I feel that is actually mitigated fairly a little bit of threat.

Laurel: Greg, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right this moment in what has been a improbable dialog on the Enterprise Lab.

Greg: Thanks. I actually recognize it.

That was Greg Belanger, vp of safety applied sciences at CBRE, who I spoke with from Cambridge, Massachusetts, the house of MIT and MIT Technology Evaluation, overlooking the Charles River. That is it for this episode of Enterprise Lab. I am your host Laurel Ruma. I am the director of Insights, the customized publishing division of MIT Technology Evaluation. We had been based in 1899 on the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and also you can discover us in print, on the internet, and in occasions every year around the globe.

For extra data about us and the present, please take a look at our web site at technologyreview.com. The present is obtainable wherever you get your podcasts. Should you take pleasure in this episode, we hope you may take a second to price and overview us. Enterprise Lab is a manufacturing of MIT Technology Evaluation. This episode was produced by Collective Subsequent. Thanks for listening.

This podcast episode was produced by Insights, the customized content material arm of MIT Technology Evaluation. It was not produced by MIT Technology Evaluation’s editorial employees.

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